HomeCoinsMonero (XMR)Logs for the MRL Assembly Held on 2020-06-03 | Monero

Logs for the MRL Assembly Held on 2020-06-03 | Monero

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Logs for the MRL Assembly Held on 2020-06-03

Posted by: asymptotically / Sarang

<sarang> OK, let’s get began!
<sarang> First, GREETINGS
<sarang> hi there
<ArticMine> Hello
<dEBRUYNE> hello
<hyc> hey
<Isthmus> Heyo
<sarang> Subsequent up, ROUNDTABLE, the place anybody is welcome to share analysis of basic curiosity
<sarang> I’ve just a few matters of curiosity
<sarang> The latest preprint from CMU scholar researchers on transaction tracing has been up to date to replicate ideas and corrections: https://eprint.iacr.org/2020/593
<binaryFate> hi there
<sarang> The researchers nonetheless declare {that a} small however nonzero variety of post-changeover (i.e. the RingCT protocol change) transactions have been traceable, which did not correspond with different numbers I might discovered
<sarang> So I made a decision to independently run the identical evaluation and examine
<sarang> I ran up to date numbers that account for all transactions as much as the start of this week
<sarang> If you happen to run a full chain-reaction-type evaluation, there are 7303 transactions after the changeover containing at the very least one deducible enter
<sarang> Nevertheless
<sarang> All of these transactions spend pre-changeover outputs
<sarang> So when you filter out all transactions that are not CT-in-CT-out, there are nonetheless exactly zero deducible transactions/inputs
<sarang> However wait, there’s extra!
<sarang> The preprint additionally tries to find out how efficient the guess-newest age heuristic is in opposition to trendy transactions
<sarang> Sadly, it makes use of these 7303 (or nevertheless many have been of their block vary) deducible post-changeover transactions as floor reality
<sarang> and assumes that holds for all post-changeover transactions
<binaryFate> huh that is fairly dumb
<sarang> I would not say it is dumb; it simply did not account for transaction varieties
<ArticMine> So the important thing right here is RingCT
<sarang> As a result of there are “full-CT” transactions post-changeover which might be deducible, everything of their ground-truth information set relies on spends of outdated funds, for which the fashionable choice algorithm doesn’t apply
<sarang> However there’s an fascinating twist
<dEBRUYNE> To be clear, it considerations transactions have been non-RingCT outputs are primarily transformed to RingCT outputs, proper?
<sarang> Amongst that ground-truth information set, the researchers discover these transactions are _still_ twice nearly as good in opposition to guess-newest from Miller et al.!
<sarang> dEBRUYNE: sure, or that are not transformed to CT in any respect
<sarang> (very restricted instances involving single inputs)
<moneromooo> > As a result of there are “full-CT” transactions post-changeover which might be deducible,
<moneromooo> Forgot a no, proper ?
<sarang> Right, thanks
<sarang> as a result of there are NO full-CT post-changeover which might be deducible (typo)
<dEBRUYNE> sarang: Thanks, I assume these are mud outputs then that first must be transformed to standardized outputs
<dEBRUYNE> mud or non-mixable
<sarang> So the conclusions offered within the paper about transaction counts aren’t mistaken, however do not differentiate between kind, which I feel is essential
<sarang> The conclusions about guess-newest are solely legitimate for his or her ground-truth set, and can’t be extrapolated to CT transactions
<binaryFate> The pockets warns you once you spend outdated outputs that privateness is reduce and it is identified you need to churn in that case. It ought to completely be talked about of their paper that these transactions are explicit and customers are absolutely knowledgeable of the danger
<sarang> I am drafting an e mail to the authors to allow them to know of this, ought to they want to revise once more
<sarang> They have been very immediate in responding to my earlier e mail, and really shortly revised, which was nice
<sarang> Now that I’ve an entire deduced information set, I am checking their outcomes on efficient anonymity units of non-deduced transactions
<sarang> I need to separate these by transaction kind as nicely
<sarang> Despite the fact that the preprint had errors, I am glad they did the analysis
<sarang> We should always encourage scholar researchers
<binaryFate> I am unclear on the guess-newhest on this dataset
<sarang> How so?
<binaryFate> Since this dataset is particularly about actual output being outdated, should not that give very particular outcomes when seeing how the heuristic performs, that may’t be prolonged to different transactions?
<sarang> Sure
<sarang> That is what I used to be saying earlier
<sarang> They assumed their ground-truth post-changeover dataset was consultant of all post-changeover transactions, which is totally false
<UkoeHB_> pre-ringCT inputs might be utilized in rings identical to trendy coinbase outputs are, which makes me unhappy
<= Sure, as a result of uninformed readers might infer that it considerations full RingCT transactions
<binaryFate> IIRC the decoy choice algorithm could be very completely different for these transactions, solely deciding on non-ringct. Since all of them are very outdated, they’re outdated on the tail of the gamma distribution, very completely different from latest one
<moneromooo> Utilizing pre-ringct outs as pretend outs would assist shortly after ringct, however would in any other case introduce a variety of identified spent outs in rings.
<binaryFate> *they’re all
<sarang> Once I end the efficient anonymity information, it ought to give a way more clear image of the standing of recent transactions (earlier than and after ring will increase too)
<sarang> The code nonetheless wants some cleanup to make it simpler for others to run this evaluation, both now or sooner or later
<UkoeHB_> fascinating level moneromooo
<sarang> due to gingeropolous for the usage of a quick machine for this evaluation
<sarang> If the researchers select to not revise, I can at all times write a brand new preprint that presents this information
<sarang> however I strongly suspect the researchers will revise once more, since they did a really immediate first revision
<binaryFate> tremendous cool that you simply checked all these outcomes
<hyc> sounds nice
<sarang> I may put up the uncooked information for the post-changeover deducible transactions, in case anybody needs to particularly analyze them
<hyc> tremendous cool that their work is pulblicly reproducible
<sarang> Once more, I am actually glad they did the evaluation
<sarang> Yeah, I did not find yourself utilizing their Java code although
<sarang> I needed some additional information they did not present, so I rewrote
<sarang> however kudos to them for making all their code public, for positive
<UkoeHB_> I might wish to see if the code could be tailored to a sure evaluation I take note of, so I am trying ahead to it
<moneromooo> Probably not. Extra like unfavorable kudos for those who do not.
<sarang> What evaluation is that UkoeHB_?
<hyc> moneromooo: sure however that also tends to be the bulk as of late
<moneromooo> Papers with out it are actually rumour. Ought to by no means be revealed.
<UkoeHB_> getting information on ring loops, and evaluating to a purely randomly generated ring db
<sarang> Outline ring loop
<hyc> moneromooo: agreed
<moneromooo> A hoop is a round assemble. A loop is…. a…….
<UkoeHB_> e.g. two outputs are owned by the identical individual, a loop is when their descendents intersect in the identical tx
<sarang> Oh, output merging
<sarang> ?
<moneromooo> Can occur by probability too (from pretend outs).
<sarang> sure
<UkoeHB_> yeah mainly, so I need to see the likelihood of given loop sizes taking place randomly
<sarang> I feel the query is how probably it’s to happen in follow vs not
<Isthmus> @UkoeHB_ necessary analysis. Outcomes shall be in all probability be miserable :- (
<moneromooo> If it was tremendous quick, it would be good for the pockets to attempt to choose pretend outs that generate “false positives”.
<sarang> There’s code that may do types of merge evaluation, and it is one thing I’ve so as to add particularly to my test code
<sarang> The graphs concerned are probably fairly massive, so it is not clear what the complexity of that is
<sarang> FWIW the early evaluation on output merging used deducible transactions solely
<UkoeHB_> proper, I’ve some concepts about limiting the output vary to first estimate precisely how lengthy such evaluation would take; may restrict the utmost loop dimension thought of
<Isthmus> UkoeHB_: to generate random information set, must choose guesstimates for parameters like variety of transactions per pockets. (actually, could be a distribution, not single worth)
<sarang> sure
<Isthmus> The fascinating factor is that we might be able to set up statistical estimates of those parameterss primarily based on the actual blockchain information
<UkoeHB_> Isthmus we will simply use the transactions that exist already, however make the enter rings randomly chosen; this gives a direct comparability with the actual ring db
<Isthmus> Particularly if uncommon “pure” prevalence, i.e. low false constructive charge
<sarang> This type of evaluation was thought of as a significant a part of the churn framework as nicely
<UkoeHB_> and do the randomly generated evaluation a number of occasions for variance
<Isthmus> Is sensible
<sarang> Anyway, I’ve taken up loads of time on that
<sarang> Was there different analysis of curiosity to debate from anybody?
<Isthmus> I will be keen on seeing plots the place x-axis is # of txns made inside a given pockets, and y-axis is statistical measures, like precision/accuracy/and many others
<Isthmus> I’ve just a few fast updates
<Isthmus> I’ve been performing some p2p community scalability analysis, creating some testing suites, and many others. Nonetheless very early studying/planning, however hopefully could have some actionable insights for Monero.
<UkoeHB_> sure it is a large undertaking and could be worthy of a paper if it goes someplace, we’ll see; I additionally need to see how nicely the gamma distribution is working by subtracting the theoretical distribution from what we’ve got in actuality
<Isthmus> @UkoeHB_ I’ve some algorithms floating round GitHub to determine and filter txns that use uniform decoy choice as a substitute of right algo. If you happen to do not strip these out, it’s going to introduce a bias in your outcomes in direction of older oututs
<Isthmus> I am going to dig these up and ship hyperlinks
<UkoeHB_> cool thanks
<sarang> Yeah, making an attempt to exclude outdated software program shall be necessary
<sarang> since there is not any consensus enforcement
<UkoeHB_> I feel ring evaluation is simply too scary for anybody to deal with alone, so a collaborative and incremental effort appears dependable
<Isthmus> Software program cannot be any older than the final ring dimension change, proper?
<sarang> Sorry, I meant software program utilizing outdated/incorrect strategies
<sarang> “nonstandard” is a greater time period
<sarang> An enormous cause why deterministic enter units are intriguing is as a result of they’re prone to include many outputs from the identical transactions
<sarang> and due to this fact are included as a “customary characteristic” of all rings
<binaryFate> “see how nicely the gamma distribution is working by subtracting the theoretical distribution from what we’ve got in actuality” I used to be doing stuff in that route too, thrilling!
<UkoeHB_> I feel I missed the final assembly. The Janus proposal was up to date per week in the past (https://github.com/monero-project/monero/issues/6456), and now the Janus mitigation is to encode the tx non-public key for recipients. For two-out tx the place there’ll solely be 1 tx pub key, the ‘change output’ would use a ‘hidden tx pub key’ derived from the non-change recipient’s encoded tx non-public key. Another could be for the
<UkoeHB_> change output to make use of a singular ‘derivation to scalar’, nevertheless I’m involved that impacts an excessive amount of protocol-level code (might be mistaken).
<binaryFate> What occurs the place there’s a 2-out tx however none of them is change?
<Isthmus> I feel it’s important to make a 3
<Isthmus> 3-output then?
<UkoeHB_> The proposal is to implement 1 tx pub key for 2-outs, and 1 key per output for >2-outs. All tx with no change output must be >2-out, even when it means including a dummy output.
<moneromooo> A zero change is mechanically added *solely* if there’s one output in any other case.
<UkoeHB_> Proper, and following the proposal there could be a really uncommon case of two non-change outs needing a dummy
<Isthmus> It is an edge case, so I understand this as an affordable resolution
<UkoeHB_> Initially encoding the tx non-public key was disregarded since present tx share tx pub keys, however since we would begin implementing extra tx pub keys that drawback is solved.
<UkoeHB_> i.e. as an answer for Janus*
<UkoeHB_> Properly, the hidden tx pub key could be pointless now that I give it some thought.. anyway that is my dusty replace.
<ArticMine> however does which means a 2 out tx at all times has change actual or dummy
<UkoeHB_> sure
<ArticMine> Can this then be attacked?
<UkoeHB_> the concept that there’s at all times a change output in 2-out tx? that assumption could be made right now already
<Isthmus> Oh no wait, it will simply transfer the problem to n+1
<sarang> Sorry, connection issues; again now
<ArticMine> however not with 100% certainty
<UkoeHB_> nicely the shenanigans round 2-out tx are largely to optimize scanning and tx sizes, since 2-out tx are ~95% of tx
<UkoeHB_> that is true ArticMine
<luigi1111w> one can assume with excessive certainty that each transaction accommodates a change output. I do not perceive why that is a major statement.
<Isthmus> Most txns. Churn does not, for instance.
<sarang> ^
<moneromooo> Why does it not ?
<sarang> Does not must
<sarang> And would have an effect on output merging later
<moneromooo> Properly, that is round reasoning then.
<Isthmus> Churning with change creates the loops UkoeHB_ talked about earlier
<luigi1111w> churn has two change outputs, no?
<ArticMine> It may well
<luigi1111w> or one and a pretend one
<UkoeHB_> churn has an ‘output to your self’ and a ‘change output’; change outputs are dealt with in a different way within the code
<luigi1111w> positive however that is from a community perspective
<UkoeHB_> yeah
<ArticMine> Or a cut up 2 separate wallets beneath the management of 1 individual
<ArticMine> It introduces uncertainty
<luigi1111w> however why does it matter?
<ArticMine> as a result of even a small bias can develop.
<sarang> Given the time, is there different analysis that must be introduced up earlier than adjourning?
<Isthmus> I’ve acquired 2 updates, will maintain transient for sake of time:
<Isthmus> Our CCS for researching Monero’s post-quantum safety is sooooooo shut. Solely 7% left, lower than 40 XMR wanted. https://ccs.getmonero.org/proposals/research-post-quantum-monero.html
<Isthmus> If that might get topped off right now, we’ll dive in instantly and have our first replace at subsequent week’s MRL assembly. :- )
<Isthmus> Unrelated – I even have certainly one of Perception’s DistSys engineers buildling “speedup” networks, i.e. highly-connected friends with excessive bandwidth to propagate blocks/txns via the advert hoc community quicker than natural propagation. Most important objective is to remove the lengthy tail in block propagation occasions.
<Isthmus> The codebase could be very modular with Terraform/ansible deployment and management scripts, so might be configured to spin up a Monero speedup community sooner or later.
<Isthmus> That is all from me.
<sarang> Good!
<sarang> I suppose I ought to point out that I welcome/request feedback/questions/emoji on my funding proposal as nicely, so a choice could be made whether or not to open it: https://repo.getmonero.org/monero-project/ccs-proposals/-/merge_requests/148
<luigi1111w> thanks for opening it nicely prematurely
<sarang> OK, I suppose we will formally adjourn for the sake of logging
<sarang> Because of everybody for becoming a member of in right now
<sarang> Dialogue can in fact proceed!

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