HomeCoinsMonero (XMR)Logs for the MRL Assembly Held on 2020-06-03 | Monero

Logs for the MRL Assembly Held on 2020-06-03 | Monero

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Logs for the MRL Assembly Held on 2020-06-03

Posted by: asymptotically / Sarang

<sarang> OK, let’s get began!
<sarang> First, GREETINGS
<sarang> howdy
<ArticMine> Hello
<dEBRUYNE> hello
<hyc> hey
<Isthmus> Heyo
<sarang> Subsequent up, ROUNDTABLE, the place anybody is welcome to share analysis of normal curiosity
<sarang> I’ve a number of subjects of curiosity
<sarang> The current preprint from CMU pupil researchers on transaction tracing has been up to date to replicate solutions and corrections: https://eprint.iacr.org/2020/593
<binaryFate> howdy
<sarang> The researchers nonetheless declare {that a} small however nonzero variety of post-changeover (i.e. the RingCT protocol swap) transactions have been traceable, which did not correspond with different numbers I might discovered
<sarang> So I made a decision to independently run the identical evaluation and evaluate
<sarang> I ran up to date numbers that account for all transactions as much as the start of this week
<sarang> If you happen to run a full chain-reaction-type evaluation, there are 7303 transactions after the changeover containing a minimum of one deducible enter
<sarang> Nonetheless
<sarang> All of these transactions spend pre-changeover outputs
<sarang> So in case you filter out all transactions that are not CT-in-CT-out, there are nonetheless exactly zero deducible transactions/inputs
<sarang> However wait, there’s extra!
<sarang> The preprint additionally tries to find out how efficient the guess-newest age heuristic is towards trendy transactions
<sarang> Sadly, it makes use of these 7303 (or nevertheless many have been of their block vary) deducible post-changeover transactions as floor fact
<sarang> and assumes that holds for all post-changeover transactions
<binaryFate> huh that is fairly dumb
<sarang> I would not say it is dumb; it simply didn’t account for transaction sorts
<ArticMine> So the important thing right here is RingCT
<sarang> As a result of there are “full-CT” transactions post-changeover which might be deducible, everything of their ground-truth information set is predicated on spends of previous funds, for which the trendy choice algorithm doesn’t apply
<sarang> However there’s an attention-grabbing twist
<dEBRUYNE> To be clear, it considerations transactions have been non-RingCT outputs are basically transformed to RingCT outputs, proper?
<sarang> Amongst that ground-truth information set, the researchers discover these transactions are _still_ twice pretty much as good towards guess-newest from Miller et al.!
<sarang> dEBRUYNE: sure, or that are not transformed to CT in any respect
<sarang> (very restricted instances involving single inputs)
<moneromooo> > As a result of there are “full-CT” transactions post-changeover which might be deducible,
<moneromooo> Forgot a no, proper ?
<sarang> Right, thanks
<sarang> as a result of there are NO full-CT post-changeover which might be deducible (typo)
<dEBRUYNE> sarang: Thanks, I suppose these are mud outputs then that first must be transformed to standardized outputs
<dEBRUYNE> mud or non-mixable
<sarang> So the conclusions offered within the paper about transaction counts aren’t unsuitable, however do not differentiate between sort, which I feel is essential
<sarang> The conclusions about guess-newest are solely legitimate for his or her ground-truth set, and can’t be extrapolated to CT transactions
<binaryFate> The pockets warns you once you spend previous outputs that privateness is reduce and it is identified you need to churn in that case. It ought to completely be talked about of their paper that these transactions are explicit and customers are absolutely knowledgeable of the chance
<sarang> I am drafting an e-mail to the authors to allow them to know of this, ought to they want to revise once more
<sarang> They have been very immediate in responding to my earlier e-mail, and really rapidly revised, which was nice
<sarang> Now that I’ve an entire deduced information set, I am checking their outcomes on efficient anonymity units of non-deduced transactions
<sarang> I need to separate these by transaction sort as properly
<sarang> Though the preprint had errors, I am glad they did the analysis
<sarang> We must always encourage pupil researchers
<binaryFate> I am unclear on the guess-newhest on this dataset
<sarang> How so?
<binaryFate> Since this dataset is particularly about actual output being previous, should not that give very particular outcomes when seeing how the heuristic performs, that may’t be prolonged to different transactions?
<sarang> Sure
<sarang> That is what I used to be saying earlier
<sarang> They assumed their ground-truth post-changeover dataset was consultant of all post-changeover transactions, which is completely false
<UkoeHB_> pre-ringCT inputs could possibly be utilized in rings similar to trendy coinbase outputs are, which makes me unhappy
<= Sure, as a result of uninformed readers could infer that it considerations full RingCT transactions
<binaryFate> IIRC the decoy choice algorithm may be very totally different for these transactions, solely deciding on non-ringct. Since all of them are very previous, they’re previous on the tail of the gamma distribution, very totally different from current one
<moneromooo> Utilizing pre-ringct outs as pretend outs would assist shortly after ringct, however would in any other case introduce a variety of identified spent outs in rings.
<binaryFate> *they’re all
<sarang> Once I end the efficient anonymity information, it ought to give a way more clear image of the standing of recent transactions (earlier than and after ring will increase too)
<sarang> The code nonetheless wants some cleanup to make it simpler for others to run this evaluation, both now or sooner or later
<UkoeHB_> attention-grabbing level moneromooo
<sarang> because of gingeropolous for the usage of a quick machine for this evaluation
<sarang> If the researchers select to not revise, I can at all times write a brand new preprint that presents this information
<sarang> however I strongly suspect the researchers will revise once more, since they did a really immediate first revision
<binaryFate> tremendous cool that you just checked all these outcomes
<hyc> sounds nice
<sarang> I can even put up the uncooked information for the post-changeover deducible transactions, in case anybody needs to particularly analyze them
<hyc> tremendous cool that their work is pulblicly reproducible
<sarang> Once more, I am actually glad they did the evaluation
<sarang> Yeah, I did not find yourself utilizing their Java code although
<sarang> I wished some further information they did not present, so I rewrote
<sarang> however kudos to them for making all their code public, for certain
<UkoeHB_> I might wish to see if the code may be tailored to a sure evaluation I bear in mind, so I am wanting ahead to it
<moneromooo> Probably not. Extra like unfavorable kudos for those who do not.
<sarang> What evaluation is that UkoeHB_?
<hyc> moneromooo: sure however that also tends to be the bulk today
<moneromooo> Papers with out it are actually rumour. Ought to by no means be revealed.
<UkoeHB_> getting information on ring loops, and evaluating to a purely randomly generated ring db
<sarang> Outline ring loop
<hyc> moneromooo: agreed
<moneromooo> A hoop is a round assemble. A loop is…. a…….
<UkoeHB_> e.g. two outputs are owned by the identical individual, a loop is when their descendents intersect in the identical tx
<sarang> Oh, output merging
<sarang> ?
<moneromooo> Can occur by likelihood too (from pretend outs).
<sarang> sure
<UkoeHB_> yeah principally, so I need to see the likelihood of given loop sizes taking place randomly
<sarang> I feel the query is how doubtless it’s to happen in follow vs not
<Isthmus> @UkoeHB_ essential analysis. Outcomes might be most likely be miserable :- (
<moneromooo> If it was tremendous quick, it might be good for the pockets to attempt to choose pretend outs that generate “false positives”.
<sarang> There’s code that may do types of merge evaluation, and it is one thing I’ve so as to add particularly to my verify code
<sarang> The graphs concerned are doubtless fairly giant, so it is not clear what the complexity of that is
<sarang> FWIW the early evaluation on output merging used deducible transactions solely
<UkoeHB_> proper, I’ve some concepts about limiting the output vary to first estimate precisely how lengthy such evaluation would take; can even restrict the utmost loop measurement thought-about
<Isthmus> UkoeHB_: to generate random information set, should choose guesstimates for parameters like variety of transactions per pockets. (actually, could be a distribution, not single worth)
<sarang> sure
<Isthmus> The attention-grabbing factor is that we could possibly set up statistical estimates of those parameterss primarily based on the true blockchain information
<UkoeHB_> Isthmus we are able to simply use the transactions that exist already, however make the enter rings randomly chosen; this supplies a direct comparability with the true ring db
<Isthmus> Particularly if uncommon “pure” prevalence, i.e. low false constructive fee
<sarang> This form of evaluation was thought-about as a significant a part of the churn framework as properly
<UkoeHB_> and do the randomly generated evaluation a number of instances for variance
<Isthmus> Is smart
<sarang> Anyway, I’ve taken up loads of time on that
<sarang> Was there different analysis of curiosity to debate from anybody?
<Isthmus> I will be all for seeing plots the place x-axis is # of txns made inside a given pockets, and y-axis is statistical measures, like precision/accuracy/and so on
<Isthmus> I’ve a number of fast updates
<Isthmus> I’ve been performing some p2p community scalability analysis, creating some testing suites, and so on. Nonetheless very early studying/planning, however hopefully can have some actionable insights for Monero.
<UkoeHB_> sure it is a large challenge and is perhaps worthy of a paper if it goes someplace, we’ll see; I additionally need to see how properly the gamma distribution is working by subtracting the theoretical distribution from what we now have in actuality
<Isthmus> @UkoeHB_ I’ve some algorithms floating round GitHub to determine and filter txns that use uniform decoy choice as an alternative of appropriate algo. If you happen to do not strip these out, it should introduce a bias in your outcomes in direction of older oututs
<Isthmus> I will dig these up and ship hyperlinks
<UkoeHB_> cool thanks
<sarang> Yeah, attempting to exclude previous software program might be essential
<sarang> since there is not any consensus enforcement
<UkoeHB_> I feel ring evaluation is just too scary for anybody to sort out alone, so a collaborative and incremental effort appears dependable
<Isthmus> Software program cannot be any older than the final ring measurement change, proper?
<sarang> Sorry, I meant software program utilizing previous/incorrect strategies
<sarang> “nonstandard” is a greater time period
<sarang> An enormous purpose why deterministic enter units are intriguing is as a result of they’re prone to include many outputs from the identical transactions
<sarang> and due to this fact are included as a “commonplace characteristic” of all rings
<binaryFate> “see how properly the gamma distribution is working by subtracting the theoretical distribution from what we now have in actuality” I used to be doing stuff in that course too, thrilling!
<UkoeHB_> I feel I missed the final assembly. The Janus proposal was up to date per week in the past (https://github.com/monero-project/monero/issues/6456), and now the Janus mitigation is to encode the tx non-public key for recipients. For two-out tx the place there’ll solely be 1 tx pub key, the ‘change output’ would use a ‘hidden tx pub key’ derived from the non-change recipient’s encoded tx non-public key. Another could be for the
<UkoeHB_> change output to make use of a novel ‘derivation to scalar’, nevertheless I’m involved that impacts an excessive amount of protocol-level code (could possibly be unsuitable).
<binaryFate> What occurs the place there’s a 2-out tx however none of them is change?
<Isthmus> I feel it’s a must to make a 3
<Isthmus> 3-output then?
<UkoeHB_> The proposal is to implement 1 tx pub key for 2-outs, and 1 key per output for >2-outs. All tx with no change output must be >2-out, even when it means including a dummy output.
<moneromooo> A zero change is mechanically added *solely* if there’s one output in any other case.
<UkoeHB_> Proper, and following the proposal there could be a really uncommon case of two non-change outs needing a dummy
<Isthmus> It is an edge case, so I understand this as an affordable answer
<UkoeHB_> Initially encoding the tx non-public key was disregarded since present tx share tx pub keys, however since we might begin imposing extra tx pub keys that drawback is solved.
<UkoeHB_> i.e. as an answer for Janus*
<UkoeHB_> Nicely, the hidden tx pub key is perhaps pointless now that I give it some thought.. anyway that is my dusty replace.
<ArticMine> however does because of this a 2 out tx at all times has change actual or dummy
<UkoeHB_> sure
<ArticMine> Can this then be attacked?
<UkoeHB_> the concept there’s at all times a change output in 2-out tx? that assumption may be made as we speak already
<Isthmus> Oh no wait, it could simply transfer the problem to n+1
<sarang> Sorry, connection issues; again now
<ArticMine> however not with 100% certainty
<UkoeHB_> properly the shenanigans round 2-out tx are principally to optimize scanning and tx sizes, since 2-out tx are ~95% of tx
<UkoeHB_> that is true ArticMine
<luigi1111w> one can assume with excessive certainty that each transaction accommodates a change output. I do not perceive why that is a major commentary.
<Isthmus> Most txns. Churn would not, for instance.
<sarang> ^
<moneromooo> Why does it not ?
<sarang> Does not must
<sarang> And would have an effect on output merging later
<moneromooo> Nicely, that is round reasoning then.
<Isthmus> Churning with change creates the loops UkoeHB_ talked about earlier
<luigi1111w> churn has two change outputs, no?
<ArticMine> It could
<luigi1111w> or one and a pretend one
<UkoeHB_> churn has an ‘output to your self’ and a ‘change output’; change outputs are dealt with in another way within the code
<luigi1111w> certain however that is from a community perspective
<UkoeHB_> yeah
<ArticMine> Or a break up 2 separate wallets beneath the management of 1 individual
<ArticMine> It introduces uncertainty
<luigi1111w> however why does it matter?
<ArticMine> as a result of even a small bias can develop.
<sarang> Given the time, is there different analysis that must be introduced up earlier than adjourning?
<Isthmus> I’ve bought 2 updates, will maintain transient for sake of time:
<Isthmus> Our CCS for researching Monero’s post-quantum safety is sooooooo shut. Solely 7% left, lower than 40 XMR wanted. https://ccs.getmonero.org/proposals/research-post-quantum-monero.html
<Isthmus> If that might get topped off as we speak, we’ll dive in instantly and have our first replace at subsequent week’s MRL assembly. :- )
<Isthmus> Unrelated – I even have one in all Perception’s DistSys engineers buildling “speedup” networks, i.e. highly-connected friends with excessive bandwidth to propagate blocks/txns via the advert hoc community sooner than natural propagation. Predominant aim is to remove the lengthy tail in block propagation instances.
<Isthmus> The codebase may be very modular with Terraform/ansible deployment and management scripts, so could possibly be configured to spin up a Monero speedup community sooner or later.
<Isthmus> That is all from me.
<sarang> Good!
<sarang> I suppose I ought to point out that I welcome/request feedback/questions/emoji on my funding proposal as properly, so a choice may be made whether or not to open it: https://repo.getmonero.org/monero-project/ccs-proposals/-/merge_requests/148
<luigi1111w> thanks for opening it properly upfront
<sarang> OK, I suppose we are able to formally adjourn for the sake of logging
<sarang> Because of everybody for becoming a member of in as we speak
<sarang> Dialogue can after all proceed!

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